new guy with GPS questions

Discussion in 'Moto Q 9h' started by SpeedyG, May 23, 2008.

  1. PacoJr67

    PacoJr67 Active Member

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    @ptlee Which if you read back, is what I said, generaly the free ones (and telenav) are the ones that need to download maps. I'm still trying to justify to myself whether I need garmin or copilot or not...
  2. Guardian

    Guardian Active Member

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    Well then you misinterpreted as "good for you" is a compliment and telling them that sharing it will help everyone including me "learn" is another one and having them share it to help another is being kind and trying to help. If that makes me somehow a lightweight or doing something wrong, then so be it. 7 years in spec ops and more than 36 bullet holes to show for it and I am still here, I have no doubt about the thickness of my skin and ability to stand a fight.

    As for the subject at hand, it WILL work with any GPS software you want, Google, Live, TeleNav (yuck), apparently Tom tom and whatever else is out there. Just tell it to use GPS and done. There is also a utility for configuring the virtual port of your GPS and even test it if you want but seems for most to not be necessary. As for the maps it will either download it or you can have it preloaded with the software, you will have to find out with each software.

    Search for GPSID and GPSTest and you should find the tools if you need them. They should be posted by mexiken or pacojr67 and also appear on the app list in rudeboy's signature. Good luck.
  3. ptlee8202

    ptlee8202 New Member

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    just reiterating. besides i think they don't let you download the maps so they can charge you for map updates and more maps to other countries.
  4. Guardian

    Guardian Active Member

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    Brother to brother, I can point you to get it without risk to your wallet but you might already know it. PM me.
  5. PacoJr67

    PacoJr67 Active Member

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    also check out the forum listed in my profile, look for a user named oKeos. He's our resident expert (XPRT) on GPS functionality in the Q9h specifically, since the c and m (although it wasn't implemented in that model) use assisted GPS.
  6. SpeedyG

    SpeedyG New Member

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    From Copilot...

    [FONT=&quot]There is no need to load the maps on to the phone. CoPilot can access the maps on the storage card.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Also, Copilot does not require a data connection, but there is a possibility that the Built in GPS is disabled if you don’t have a data connection.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Copilot Technical Support[/FONT]


    So it seems that in a perfect world copilot for $100 would give me most of what I had been looking for, as long as the internal GPS works with it.



    I'm still waiting to hear from Delorme to see if SA2009 works with WM6 Smartphone and specifically the Q9h. I can get that software for under $40.

    Of course I can hit ISO hunt for all of it but I haven't done that in a long time. I like have legal copies of all of this stuff.
  7. mexiken

    mexiken New Member

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    My turn to chime in. You can't expect a phone to be able to store as much space as an SD card. There is only 128 MB available to the user built into the phone. This is equivalent to the detailed maps of California and Washington maybe. My US detailed maps for Garmin were nearly 1 GB, as someone else mentioned. If a phone could hold this, there would be less of a necessity for SD cards. But memory isn't cheap.

    It sounds like you want an app that loads maps from resident memory. There are several options. Garmin Mobile XT, TomTom, and CoPilot work. If I'm not mistaken, they use propietary SD cards that will only store the map on it, nothing else. At least, thats how Garmin is. Also, I believe Route 66 or whatever its called works too. I can confirm that Garmin Mobile XT works on the Q Global. The other person was posting how they got their internal GPS to be recognized by the program. You would need to play around with it because of the Virtual GPS driver, most developers haven't quite been able to figure it out. However, using GPSID helps give it a more "stable" location for an app to look.

    The free apps that load maps on the fly (internet) are not limited, this is just the smarter way to go because it assumes most people with PDA's have a data plan, and it allows the map details (road changes, POI, etc) to be updated faster, rather than wait for a map update from Garmin or TomTom or whatever. They are created with this in mind. Like we've said, there are 2 options. The kind that load maps via internet, or the kind stored on cards. You can choose either one.

    You aren't going to find a free resident memory solution, because well, building and updating a map database is not easy, nor cheap. Google and MS have one because they maintain an internet version, and have made it work with phones. When the internet version gets updated, so does the mobile version, since they're pulling map data from the same source. The reason those are free is obvious. Market share and advertising. If you use their GPS product, you'll be more inclined to use their other products, and when you do searches, there are advertisements. Its those same advertisments that are in essence paying for your map updates.

    I'm afraid thats as simple as I can explain it.
  8. Guardian

    Guardian Active Member

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    Well said. As simple as building a nuke Wink j/k. Seriously, good job.
  9. mexiken

    mexiken New Member

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    Hey, I try. Maybe I should have been a teacher, lol. My sister is. Guess its her rubbing off on me.

    Unfortunately, sometimes people get entrenched into an idea or belief, and no matter how much common sense you hit em with, it falls on deaf ears. I'm not saying this is what is happening here, but I get the vibe it might.
  10. Guardian

    Guardian Active Member

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    Nothing wrong with being a teacher and if you are good at it, then you should. For me common sense came through being a student in the school of life, I always figured it was for other people too. I guess we each learn differently. :)
  11. ptlee8202

    ptlee8202 New Member

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    Does it seem to you that those other posters with the common sense seem not to be answering your questions?

    Here's the cliff notes from mexikens posts, he has the garmin mobile xt and has first hand knowledge it will work with the gps on the q9h.

    It's obvious you already know that if the maps come on a SD card, you won't need a data plan to download maps. But, be warned that since the maps are proprietary you will have to swap out the SD card while you are using the navigation software and leave yourself without access to whatever is on that SD card. Someone actually sells SD adapters to allow 2 SD cards to be used together at the same time, but the one I saw was not for microSD.

    Good teachers will peak your interest to provoke you to learn the bad ones just bore you to death.
  12. SpeedyG

    SpeedyG New Member

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    well stated and yes it seems to me that people are putting a lot of words in my mouth. I've looked the beginning of this over and it seems this helped to get the ball rolling...

    Gaurdian-------------[This has been answered to death and by searching you would have found more information than you could ever imagine, but just the same.

    It is correct and either way you need a data plan or how is it supposed to download the maps and communicate with the satellite? The GPS is there and it works fine but needs data plan, that is correct.

    It is hard to imagine that people assume having a GPS means somehow it is encapsulated in your phone and in a vacuum just for them. Like people used to call support and say, "my computer says internet ready why doesn't it show anything?" and we would ask, "did you dial up?" and the response would be why should I dial up, it says internet ready and has a modem and its turned on. Never fails.]-----------


    I'm not sure how anyone thinks I don't understand what is being said in this thread. I basically asked if the internal GPS could be used with 3rd party apps and the simple answer is yes. ATT said no and I needed definitive clarification before I started throwing a bunch of time at finding the best solution for my needs. Never did I suggest that any of those third party solutions should be free or that I should somehow expect the minimal phone memory to store the entire US mapping and POI data on the phones internal memory. That's as simple as I can reiterate it. The only thing I can see that could have been seriously misconstrued is if people thought I meant I wanted to download all of googles maps ahead of time and store them on the phone. That was never what I meant and I would think my follow up posts cleared that up.

    This whole discussion of whether you MUST have a data plan to use said GPS was an evolution that got thrown in and not my original question. As near as I can tell all my assumptions regarding the actual mapping have proven to be accurate. Mexikan's post is far more of an accurate response to the above post from Guardian than it is anything I posted.

    The information regarding the Virtual Driver certainly does shed some lite on why there is some ambiguity regarding the stability of these third party apps. and is a much appreciated piece to the puzzle.

    I thought I saw a mention that the copilot maps could be moved to a larger SD card for dual purpose use but I'm not sure if that was this discussion or another. I will check back with CoPilot for an answer to that. As of yet memory hasn't been an issue. I don't even have an SD card currently. The phone has had plenty of memory to hold all of my contact data including my Ootlook BCM data logs. However I have also started using the internal camera phone on initial sales calls to document job sites so I would imagine memory could become an issue pretty quickly.

    I was able to access google maps with no problem this weekend so that application at least had no problem working with the internal GPS.

    I am not afraid of searching but the search engines on these forums are usually not Google robust. If someone has any links saved to well done reviews or shootouts between these pay solutions like CoPilot, TomTom or Garmin I'd love to see them.
  13. Xebec

    Xebec Member

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    Although Speedy says he's very technical, I don't think he understands how GPS works as much as he thinks he does, at least on cell phones. Here is how it works:

    Yes, the Q9H does have GPS. Having GPS alone does NOT give you mapping capabilities. All GPS gives is is a set of coordinates. No data plan is required for your cell phone to get it GPS coordinates. What Speedy fails to realize is that having your GPS coordinates does not equal showing you where you are on a map. In order to do that, your cell phone has to obtain the mapping information from somewhere. When using free services like Google or MSN, that mapping information comes from the internet. With paid services like Tom Tom, the mapping information comes on an SD or (depending on your phone) microSD card. Many people use the free services and since they get their mapping information over the internet, they recommend the unlimited data plan.
  14. U-2

    U-2 New Member

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    And how did you came up with this conclusion?

    Unfortunately, you can exclude TomTom from the list - no new maps for TomTom Mobile, all new maps are only for TomTom AIO solutions. But TomTom routing algorithm is one of the best - fast and reliable. Garmin XT is OK, but it feels sluggish compare to TomTom. I have not tried Copilot, Route66 and Navigon, but check out this site: http://www.gpspassion.com - it has reviews and a lot of usefull information. IGO8 works only for the smartphones with a touchscreen, it requires some hacks to make it work for Q9h
  15. Xebec

    Xebec Member

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    It wasn't a "conclusion" I came up with. It is just the way GPS works.

    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gps.htm

    For a real "dumb" downed explanation, play the video. Pay attention to where he says "most gps receivers have built in maps to show your location". Guess what? The Q9h has NO built in maps, so it MUST download mapping information over the internet. Hence why many people are recommending the unlimited data plan. Sure it will work without having a data plan, but you'll have one whopping bill at the end of the month when you realize your carrier charged you per kilobyte because you had no data plan.
  16. SpeedyG

    SpeedyG New Member

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    OK - I must be typing in Greek. This whole thread has drifted very far from my original intent and other than an offhand comment about syncing I don't really see how it got there.

    On Topic:

    Did I ever suggest that I expected the phone to have built in mapping capabilities? I simply wanted to know if the internal GPS was a standards compliant device that could reasonably be expected to talk to most third party software. There are no guarantees in this world but again, ATT was claiming the GPS would only work with Telenav through them.

    I never even thought to ask about where it gets its mapping/POI data from because I knew the data would have to be streamed or stored locally. It was Guardians comment that you had to have the data plan to get the actual SAT info that really threw me and caused me to question if there was something new here that I didn't understand about the basics of how GPS on a cell phone, as opposed to any other portable device, would work.
    No one has shown me differently. As far as I can see It's looking at the microwave signals from the Sats the same as any other typical GPS device.

    Then we seemed to be getting into more confusion when a few suggested that even with an SD card I could not reasonably expect to have US data stored locally. That was also shown to be off the mark.

    Off Topic:

    Not really sure how to answer the "not as technical as he thinks comment". I guess I'll just say that I've been in the technical field long enough to know that you can spend a life time in one area and still not be a true expert, which is why you need to ask other experts for advice. However a significant portion of my job is to be able to quickly determine what a given piece of electronics should be capable of, even if it doesn't always deliver.
  17. SpeedyG

    SpeedyG New Member

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    A GPS receiver does not have built in maps. It is simply a device that translates the SAT data into something the software can use. A GPS device may or may not.

    Edit - you could argue the semantics of what is a receiver and what is a device. I think, and it is an opinion, that most consider the receiver to be the little external box in whatever form or the internal electronics that act as the receiver.
  18. SpeedyG

    SpeedyG New Member

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    Thanks for the info and the link.
  19. Xebec

    Xebec Member

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    AT&T is wrong. Most 3rd party apps work just fine. However, if those 3rd party apps cannot use the "intermediate GPS driver", then you'll need another app, that configures the GPS to use a standard com port. The free GPS Mapping software that I have tried, Google Maps and Windows Live Search can use the intermediate driver. I've tried one navigational type GPS software (Nav4All) and it cannot use the intermediate driver, so I had to download a utility from Microsoft to map the GPS to a com port.
  20. PacoJr67

    PacoJr67 Active Member

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    @ speedyg
    qft. one should never stop learning. nuff said...

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